Naxx is the Hardest Raid to Pug.
on March 6, 2010 at 9:18 pm(Note: This post contains adult language. You have been warned.)
A familiar story for all of you, though one I am sharing because I couldn’t believe just how stereotypical it was.
I had time to kill today. I’ve done most of my major raids for the week and nobody was running TOGC that I could find, so I decided to bum around, take care of some auction stuff, and have some fun with some more off the wall activities. I ran Wintergrasp, cashed in about 60k worth of honor on epic gems, sold them all for a nice haul on the auction house, and then looked to go make trouble.
Now, I have never been able to clear Naxx before. I came to be level 80 at a time when the Dungeon Finder had just taken off, and Naxx became a completely optional place for anyone looking to do end-game. One could gear up exclusively through heroics, the ICC heroics added even nicer gear, and by the time I was running raids regularly in a guild we had TOC on farm and were knocking on ICC’s door. I had cleared the Arachnid Quarter once, gone back for bosses required for the weekly raid quest, and that was it.
However, I’d always wanted to go back. I love being able to check out epic content, even if I’m overgeared for the task. As a raider since Vanilla, Naxx has a special place in my heart from its early reputation as a guild-killer. However, nobody really runs it. We tried once by enticing people to come along due to Patchwerk being the weekly raid. We told everyone we intended to clear it. Everyone agreed. We made the mistake of going for Patchwerk first. 6 people immediately left.
Today, however, a player put out a call for more geared players to come along for the 20-man Naxx achievement. He wanted people with full clears already on their record. However, I messaged him, knowing my gear was way over his baseline for bringing people along.
“5557 mage get me in without the full clear achievement?”
“How much have you done?”
“Arachnid Quarter, and other than that I’m a fast learner.”
“Alright, I’ll give you a chance.”
Read that exchange again. Commit it to memory. Our story continues.
We gathered 20 very geared players together. I will now begin my checklist for….
THINGS NOT TO DO WHEN PUGGING.
1. Do not pass up the opportunity to use Ventrilo.
I asked innocently, “Do we have vent for this?” You would have thought I was from the planet Mars from the reaction that I got. R U SRUS? OMG. “If we need vent for this run, then we FAIL.” On and on and on. I replied by shrugging it off and saying that it was a simple question. I then sent the Raid Leader a message:
“I’ll probably be bugging you once or twice for boss strats, or just let me know if anything is more complicated than ‘DPS boss.’ Thanks.”
No response.
One more vocal warrior *demanded* we did Inquisitor first, or he was leaving. We headed in that direction as people started having an angry debate about how many priests we needed. All of these separate incidents evidence of how badly Ventrilo was needed here. Ventrilo cannot be as easily ignored as raid chat. Ventrilo forces one person to talk at a time. And most importantly, people are not nearly as willing to be a dicksmack when audibly speaking and the curtain is peeled back that much more.
2. Do not forget that adjustments are needed when overgeared.
We wiped our 2nd trash pull. 3 mages and a hunter, AOE attacking 5 mobs almost immediately after the tank ran in. The massive torrent of DPS was too much, everything got pulled and we were dead. Surprisingly, nobody rage quit, but the chat was quickly turning into an e-peen measuring contest. People lambasting each other for their idiocy, going on about whether the tank should have had thread managed already, complaining that this raid was a waste of their time (yet curiously not leaving), and how we were all fail. I was told this many times.
We made the adjustment of giving the tank 5 seconds to build aggro, continued on, and we had no problems from there.
Until the Inquisitor.
3. Overgeared does not equal Omnipotent. Overgeared does not equal “mind reader”.
We approached the boss as one of the players made the mistake of asking if anyone had the quest and wondering if they could share it. People responded by calling him a moron. One person left after this, spitting venom at the group and their lack of ability as they hearthed. I vocally bid them good riddance and prepared to receive the strat for the boss.
I did not receive the strat for the boss.
The priest asked if he was needed to mind control. He received a quick instruction which the priest seemed satisfied with. I messaged the raid leader. “Dps boss?” the response was a ready check and the order to charge in. We did, the fight started, people started dying because someone surely wasn’t doing their job, and everyone got angry AGAIN.
Then the raid immediately fell apart. I was the only character to survive, seeing the writing on the wall and turning invisible and hugging a nearby wall. The leader began berating everyone, nobody was happy, and I had this wonderful exchange (click to embiggen).
If I may be an old man for a second, this is so often the problem with WoW players. They absolutely refuse to put in the 5 extra seconds that they could spend getting everyone coordinated and working together because they MUST. DOWN. THIS. BOSS. RIGHT. NOW. I’m not exactly unveiling any deep secrets at this moment (Penny Arcade nailed this topic years ago), but the idea that any end game raid is an automatic win at any level of gear is laughable, and to believe so is to make an incredibly silly gamble. One of the warriors made the comment in the raid as things were starting to unravel that “You can’t pug Naxx anymore, it’s impossible… people think they are too good.” And here we watched that point be proven for us in person.
So, to the Raid Leader whose name I am withholding (due to some strange sense of pity and the realization that this is not a revenge post), who is an unguilded Shaman of Cho’Gall who hasn’t even come CLOSE to finishing ICC (Achievements being listed in Armory is a real bitch, ain’t it?), read the above summary a few times and start to reflect on how easy it would have been to salvage that raid, even with all the inflated egos running around. I find it funny that as far as I can tell, I’d done my job just fine and yet here I was the one being berated for my mass inferiority. Your job as raid leader does not end the second the group is assembled.
I welcome your thoughts.
-Chris





Wow. Reading this first thing in the morning was probably a bad call on my part, but you nailed it. I’m wary of pugging even just the weekly raid boss because I know the potential heights (depths?) of idiocy people can reach.
I’ve been raiding since BC, and one thing I’ve noticed is that although it IS easier to get gear, which is good, it also means that people who’ve never raided before can raid without “earning their dues” so to speak.
One of the things you learn in raiding is that patience is a virtue. Also, make sure everyone really is on the same page for a fight ^^.
Unfortunately, it is difficult for people like you to learn the Lich King raid content without the cooperation of people who may, if the gods like, have to explain content to “nOObs.”
I’m in a similar situation with ICC – I’ve never done it but no one will let me in their pug w/o the achievement – but I can’t get the achievement until I raid ICC. -.- And don’t get me started on “gear score.”
GL
I am not sure if this is a good thing or a bad thing to say, but I see this kind of behavior all the time, and even in Alt runs within my own guild. Sure, the abusive G.I.F.T. behavior isn’t quite so rampant in a guild run as it is in an anonymous pug, but overgeared people pulling every mob in sight and calling the healers Fail if they cant heal everyone through the ensuing FUBAR is quite normal. I have heard that things arent always this way, that this kind of pug/alt run drama is a cultural realm or Battlegroup specific thing more than a WoW-wide phenomena, but I have yet to find that utopia ;D
As a DPS, I was always very wary of PuGing even heroics for precisely this reason. As I was gearing up in blues and a few iLevel 200 purples and there were a lot of other people in the same position, you still sometimes needed strategies beyond ‘Nuke everything in sight’.
Now that I play a tank as my main (and have played the instances more so i know what i’m doing, and am massively overgeared), i’m more inclined to PuG heroics. I am happy to admit when something is my fault and I will stand my ground when it’s not. If I ever get votekicked by idiots not willing to accept anything less than a perfect run (or blaming me for something that wasn’t my fault e.g DPS overaggro due to AoEing before i’d even got to the mobs) I know I can get right back into another instance in 30 seconds (I really feel for the DPS who have long queues and get kicked when it wasn’t their fault or was a simple accident or they aren’t as geared as the others or whatever).
I have never ever PuGed a raid, even ones I know backwards like Naxx. I am in the lucky position of having a good guild of people who all know each other in the real world. We’re working our way through the initial stages of ICC now. It just sounds like too much pain to deal with 9 impatient people.
did you bother reading up on the fights ahead of time?
No.
did you expect to be spoon-fed strats and how to do your job?
Yes.
So a bunch of other players weren’t exactly stellar.
Still …fix the problems you can fix with yourself before you start blaming others.
HAHA Nice. I was running a 5-man with my n00b 68 and NOBODY killed an ice block on the healer except me. Um.. Yeah, you did not fail because my 68 dps was 200 less than a 72′s dps.. you failed because you lack basic skill and can only overgear an instance massively and brute force it by luck.
I want the Naxx achievement’s too..
. All I have is Arachnid.
@Coldbear
Did he say he was joining a group that was planned ahead of time and such had time to read up each strat?
No.
Did the leader(s) do more than be the loot master and have a crown over their head?
No.
Being a raid leader myself, I know there’s more to a raid than yelling when things don’t go right and saying what boss we’re doing next. Even if someone has done the boss 200 times, someone is bound to only have done it a few times or not at all. A quick rundown is all you need. People have the mistake of thinking there’s no responsibility in a 25-man. Since they were starting with Razzivious (spelling?) then yes, some people need to know what to do here.
You can’t expect to bastardize content just because you over gear it tenfold.
I feel your pain. My guild is just now getting to the point where they are testing the raid waters. We sometimes have coordination issues on 5-man heroics, but a bunch of first times 80′s learning the ropes.
I’ve always been an expansion away from the end-game content. I started about a week before BC came out, so when I got to 60 no one was doing old stuff much anymore, like Naxx. I put off buying BC, and by the time I did and got to 70, WotLK was out and Outland was kinda lonely. Now that I’m 80, mostly geared, I still can’t get into Naxx because it is again old stuff. And I love the concept of the place!
Like others, all I see is ICC – must have accomplishment already, must have 7k gear score, etc… And any PUG raid I get in seems to think if they don’t one-shot everything that it is an insult to them and leave. I’ve been in some good ones where we pugged 25 man faction champs, and then others where we wipe on trash.
It’d be nice if there was some incentive to pug raid content, or at least the older stuff.
Now…on to hack the armory to show I’ve downed the Lich King so I can get in a group to down the Lich King
I don’t know, I would NEVER pug a raid. EVER. I would also never do a raid without vent. You, good sir, are a braver man than I. /bow
PUGs = fraught with danger think of it this way your running with 10/25 other people that are NOT doing it in guild their reason for this could be that they are incapable of LISTENING/FOLLOWING instructions and cant “in guild” it sure it could be an alt but most end game raiding guilds have alt runs or “old skool nite” sure some competent people sneak in but the % is mainly stupid arrogant sand bagging 12yr olds (either mentally or actually) that no matter what gear / achievements they have will expect everyone else to do the hard work and blame you for the fail
so if your willing to risk the repair bills and the countless hours waisted between wipes the possible barrage of insults then sure go for it its always a gamble and this story is more common than not
i know this is an extremely late comment, but i’m just now discovering the daily blink
*as an aside, it is quite an awesome strip and i wish you the best, i’m glad to have found it*
coming from the dramaspear server (darkspear) and also being extremely well geared, i know exactly where you’re coming from. this has happened to me far too many times.
when i make a raid i make it a point to make sure everyone knows the fights. i’ve been in too many raids where i wasn’t the leader and it was assumed that we could brute force it.
hell there are some bosses in BC and vanilla that you can’t even brute force dps.
bottom line is, skill/knowledge > gear ALWAYS.
as another aside, it’s instructor that you’re referring to, not inquisitor
not that it even matters anymore, just a nitpicking whore here
LOL! You hit the nail on the head with “Your job does not end as raid leader when you have assembled the group”. I myself have seen that to many times, and again, you’re right, if people had gotten on ventrilo, they would have not been talking with attitudes like that.
I dont pug anymore. If the guild isn’t running it, then im not pugging it. I mean, i have really good gear (papasmurfh @ baelgun if you dont believe me) and even i know good gear doesn’t mean that your omnipotent.
Wow, late to this party, but I just discovered The Daily Blink (via MMO-Champion), so here I am, going back through the archives. <3 this, by the way. The sheep thing still makes me giggle.
Stories like this are why I don't PuG raids. *shudders in horror* PuGging heroics is often bad enough. I hope you eventually got the Naxx achivement though. If I were on Cho'Gall, I'd offer to go with you if you haven't, but I'm on
ERP CentralMoon Guard. Still, we’d go over the boss strats (not the least because I haven’t cleared it either and the fights I have done I don’t really remember) on Vent with everyone.Wow i am really late on this one… but i will toss in my two coppers anyway
As a long time player (albeit an inconsistent one i play when i can afford to…) and i do mean long time i still remember the world events for opening the gates to AQ
i have had my ups and down with pugging.
first of all i am DPS always have been always will be my “lock” is my main and my fav class so i cannot speak from any other point of view because i simply do not know them
Pugging depends heavily on the raid leader. a good leader can salvage a bag pug even with multiple wipes on trash or bosses. a good leader makes sure the group knows the fights makes sure assignments are clear and i cannot stress this enough does not bash on the party members to me it appears your raid leader was not capable of leading and should have asked if anyone in the group could step up and take his/her place
now for personal responsibility…..
please no one assume i am bashing on Chris i say this wholeheartedly trying to help and its simply advice i am no expert and i admit as such right here right now
before i ever hit a raid or a new dungeon i attempt to find any and all vids i can on boss kills and unique trash pulls
instructor is a bitch plain and simple its a technical fight with timing needs that require vent on the note of vent i wholeheartedly agree communication in real time that does not detract from combat is critical
assuming you were on whitehaven then yes its mostly dps this dps that rinse repeat claim achievement move on
regardless of this fact the raid leader should have communicated with the raid on the specs of this fight
i hope you manage to get your achievements and you have better luck in the future with pugs good hunting chris
Noch out
(oh and anyone who says im full of it… please go check my armory page all i need left for clearing nax it sap and KT on 25 as i dropped offline a ways back and havent gone back to get them… Nochdguir Cenarion circle lvl 80 human warlock ( http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/cenarion-circle/nochdguir/achievement#168:14922:a576 ) )